Posted by: Yvonne | July 26, 2011

Movie Buffs Beware: Hellbound?

Screen writer, Kevin Miller, picks up with ‘Hellbound?’  where Rob Bell left off in Love Wins.  Here’s a preview from Lighthouse Trails:  http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=6943

About these ads

Responses

  1. Hello Yvonne: Thanks for mentioning the film, even though you’re clearly wary of its agenda. I’ll gladly consent to an interview about the film to see if I can help alleviate some of your concerns–and correct some of the rampant speculation and fear-mongering over @ Lighthouse.

    • Hi Kevin –
      Thank you for offering an interview; however, at this time we will decline. The interview with Shelley Hendrix of Atlanta Live! provided enough information of your focus and purpose for the Hellbound project.

      Case and point . . . From the interview, in your own words “people are raising alternative views”. A Christian (saving faith) does not begin the examination of Hell from their perspective. They begin the examination from God’s perspective using Scripture to interpret itself.

      The answers you are seeking are simple from God’s perspective. Man’s perspective is unreliable, finite, and selfish. Man does not want to give up his earthly toys, “live for today” world view, and essentially – his sin. We like our sin a whole lot and we are convincing ourselves by our own rational that we must be right because the God who professes to love us could not be capable of also condemning people to an eternity in Hell.

      The starting point is Scripture. God clearly says who He is and what He is about. He says there is a Hell and clearly defines His terms for spending eternity there. Just because man does not agree does not make God wrong.

      Kevin, consider this scenario: I ask you to tell me about yourself, your deepest beliefs and then I ask your friend to tell me about you. I return to you and tell you that those “deepest beliefs” are wrong because I talked with your friend and after thinking about it I decide that your beliefs don’t make sense to me, they are illogical, and actually impossible. Therefore, you must be wrong. Are my thoughts superior to yours?

      Are our thoughts superior to God’s?

      The most interesting point in your interview with Shelley is the very last one: “Hell, leads us down to some much, much deeper issues about who we are as human beings” Our hope is that on this point you stop a while, search Scripture for the answer. As you search, you will find Him.

  2. It seems to me you have nothing to lose or fear from communicating directly with the filmmaker and hearing each others’ views, particularly if you are concerned for the welfare of his soul and his search for God – if that is your passion, then how in fact could you justifiably turn that opportunity down?

    • Welcome, Louise and thank you for your question. Where as we do care for the salvation of Kevin Miller, a public interview does not seem an appropriate platform. We also do not desire to provide any marketing advantages for the movie. Mr. Miller is welcome to comment on any of our posts to provide additional insights and correct any misrepresentations of his movie. In the interview posted Mr. Miller is very clear about the goals of his project and it all begins with exploring “people’s alternate views”.

  3. Judy: the point you may have missed in the Atlanta Live interview is the purpose of talking to people who hold views of hell other than eternal, conscious torment. And that is to understand why so many smart, well meaning people can look at the same data and yet come away with such radically different conclusions. Clearly, something is coming between us and the data. The question is, what? The idea that my salvation would be called into question as a result of me pursuing this line of inquiry is puzzling to say the least.

  4. Kevin, my question is quite simple. What do you believe is coming between the “well meaning people” and the “data”?

  5. That is what I’m seeking to discover un the film. Only I’m talking about all of us–not just “them.” There is no such thing as evidence without interpretation. Even if you allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, eventually you will have to apply reason, experience and tradition to arrive at a particular belief. Otherwise you wind up in endless circularity. That holds true no matter what your view of hell.

    • Thank you for your willingness to explain, Kevin.

      If you feel the need to apply experience and tradition to Scripture in order to understand then there is no room for the Holy Spirit who, ultimately, is the only trustworthy teacher of a true born again Christian (1 Cor.2:13-14). No ‘circularity’ of reason will occur when we rely on and trust in Him.

      So, from what you have already stated, you are willing to accept “them” to be credible authorities on the subject of hell despite the truth that is in 1 Cor. 2:14, which tells us that unbelievers cannot understand the Truth of Scripture, even the doctrine of hell, because ‘they’ do not have the Holy Spirit in ‘them’; it is ‘foolishness’ to ‘them’.

      Therefore, my conclusion is that what you most likely are presenting in your documentary is not worthy of being promoted to Christians because the ‘them’ you are interviewing have already denied the clear teaching of Scripture in other areas. Why would we think they get the doctrine of hell correct?

  6. Whether you realize it or not, Yvonne, at some point you applied reason, tradition and experience to Scripture in order to conclude that the Holy Spirit is the only trustworthy teacher. That’s not to negate the Holy Spirit’s role in that process. All of these belief-producing mechanisms work together. That’s how we test what we think we hear the Spirit saying. As for non-Christians, if the Spirit didn’t speak to non-Christians, none of us would have become Christians. But that’s really beside the point.

    Once again we have a failure to communicate. Probably my fault. The majority of the people I am talking to about hell–even the people who don’t agree with your view–are Christians, people who claim to have the same Spirit guiding them as you do. Hence the impasse. None of them question the authority of Scripture–and some of them probably agree with your view on hell. They just disagree on whose interpretation is authoritative–and on what grounds we can make that decision.

    • Kevin, The real conflict over the Biblical doctrine of Hell is authority. Scripture is crystal clear on the description of Hell, who qualifies, when &how the decisions are made. Secondly, you are denying the perspicuity of Scripture. In fact this movie seeks to confuse and to confound Believers and Nonbelievers. Scripture even warns us “to be alert” of these “distorted things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20:29-30) Kevin, there is nothing unique or revelatory about your project. Same song different tune, different age.

  7. Judy: If the Bible is so crystal clear about hell, why is it that so many Christians disagree on what it says?

    • Kevin, As a Christian (I think you are professing to be a Christian), I don’t comprehend why this answer evades you. Is Scripture the authoritative Word of God in your life?

    • Kevin,
      I’m sure you would agree that just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean he/she is one (Matt.7). As Mike Stanwood pointed out in the preview of your documentary, many of the people that you interview for the documentary have already been shown to be outside the orthodox view of Scripture on serious issues such as penal substitution or the authority of Scripture. In your film do you interview those who hold to an orthodox view of Hell? Have you presented all viewpoints including those who hold to the historic, fundamental perspective? If not, why?

  8. What I believe about hell- did not save me.
    He saved me from hell on earth and now I belong to Him.

    Judy, I think it’s wrong that you would question anyone’s salvation (publicly declaring them lost) for any reason. I don’t believe you have been given authority to do that.

    • Hi Deborah and welcome to the discussion.

      I reviewed our ‘comments’ and I do not see where anyone “publically declared them lost” (referencing Kevin Miller?). Without apology, we are unable to share Kevin Miller’s curiosity regarding “people raising different views [Biblical Doctrine on Hell]. However, there is some curiosity as to why this doctrine baffles a Christian.

      On the last point, Christians do have an obligation to examine Scripture concerning any Biblical teaching & preaching.

      Acts 17:11; Exhortation to “examining the Scripture to see if these things were so.”

      1 Cor. 11:4; Exhortation to bear “if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accpted”

      1 John 4: 1-6; Exhortation “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God”

      • “Where as we do care for the salvation of Kevin Miller: a public interview does not seem an appropriate platform.”

        This is the comment I was referring to. You may not have intended to pronounce him unsaved, yet it certainly reads that way.

        I agree with you entirely, regarding our obligation to “…examine Scripture concerning any Biblical teaching & preaching.”

        Not everyone agrees on the details regarding hell, and I don’t think that disqualifies people from being accepted by Christ. People have questions and are seeking answers. There are so many words Jesus spoke that can send your head and heart reeling, and it’s good to stop and ask, seek, ponder things with God in His word. His word is rich and powerful and not always cut and dry.

        What will happen, for example, to those of us who do not feed the poor, or visited the sick or imprisoned? Jesus was very clear about our call to show compassion.

        Matt 25
        41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

        44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

        45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

        46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

        I’ve met people who have a lot to learn about compassion, and I myself have fallen short. Does this mean I have rejected Jesus and His word?

        Some read the parable of the sheep and goats and upon examination see that they don’t live that way… and don’t know what to make of this portion of scripture-“Should we sell everything we have and give the money to the poor? Should we quit our jobs and spend all out time in the mission field so we won’t go to hell? While we wrestle to understand what His word is telling us, are we in danger of losing our salvation? I don’t believe so.

        Likewise- Not knowing what to make of scripture, or being without absolute confidence about the nature of hell, (is it forever? is it temporary? etc…) does not cause people to lose their salvation and it does not earn people the title of ‘false teacher’ ‘Heretic’

        If someone writes a book or makes a movie about hell that leads me away from Christ, than I have to ask what led me to Him in the first place. Hell doctrine does not have the power to lead me closer or further away from Jesus, because Hell doctrine is not my foundation.

        I didn’t come to receive Christ because I was afraid of going to hell, and so fear is not what sustains me in my walk with God.

        One question I have is -Are people entering into a relationship with their Savior because they love Him? Or, is Jesus being received as one would receive a ‘get out of hell free’ card?
        He is much more than that, and my concern is more about focus.

        Is this fear I see rising, over questions raised about hell, a symptom of faith based primarily on escaping punishment- and not on who God is?
        “We love Him, because He first loved us…”

        We do not love Him because He has taught us what hell is and is not.

        I respect that you are concerned for the Church, and I do not doubt your heart toward the Bride of Christ. It’s fairly obvious to me that you want to see His word honored and heeded. I am concerned as well.

  9. Yvonne and Judy,
    Thank you for continuing to be open to this discussion. There are so many people these days of whatever view that are not even willing to do that, and I respect that.
    I think perhaps the point Kevin was trying to make is that he is finding that Christians can have the scripture be the authoritative word in their life, but understand the scripture (not just individual verses, but how the whole of scripture fits together) in different ways. There’s no doubt this is so, the question is why, and what does it mean to be ‘right’?
    My understanding is that he is seeking to talk to many born-again Bible believing Christians who nevertheless have different views on some aspects – but he can speak better to that. This is something I’m interested to learn about, as it’s always good to seek understanding, especially if our goal is the truth. I’m certain I don’t have all the answers wrapped up in a bow because I only have a human brain so I hope I’m humble enough to recognize that others might know more than me (although still be limited in their understanding), and I’m open to learning and trusting the Holy Spirit to help me and allow me to hear many different voices without worrying about being led astray.
    The minute we think we have it all figured out is the moment to take a step back, it seems to me.
    And Deborah I love the comment about hell not saving you – me neither :)

    • :)

  10. I for one am glad that this movie is being made. There has been a significant debate about hell and it seems that everyone is taking jabs without coming to any worthwhile conclusions. I’m a new to the faith and what bothers me the most is that I find that many evangelical Christians hate it when faith issues are questioned. I’ve learned in my life – since I have had and still have many questions – that God uses this as an opportunity. From what I have gathered through their press releases is that these filmmakers are doing the debate justice by bringing all these people to one stage. This will be an important film and by the way, there is no harm in asking questions about core beliefs. God doesn’t mind.

    • HI Franklin Tn — Welcome! Agreed, “God doesn’t mind” our questions or our searching for the answers. But what He does mind is who we ask, where we go for the answers, and what we choose to believe (and not believe).

      2Cor 2:14 “But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraaised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord that He will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

      ” I find that many evangelical Christians hate it when faith issues are questioned”

      Franklin TN, I don’t mind at all ‘faith issues questioned’; however, I do mind when God’s Truth is avoided, twisted, or ignored while “searching for the answers”

      It all began in the garden (for man) with a simple question: “Indeed, has God said . . .?” Genesis 3:1

  11. The question is, is hell a core belief? Because if it is, why don’t Peter and Paul ever mention it when they preach in Acts? Good question to ask yourself: How did the earliest Christians define the “good news” of the gospel? When they preached salvation, salvation from what?

    • Kevin – Let’s look at what Paul says:
      1Cor 1:1 “Paul called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God” — Literally “sent one” as an emissary of the Lord.
      Paul preached Christ: 1Cor 2:2 “For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified”

      Paul’s purpose was Christ’s purpose. So what does Christ say about hell? Is it a place? Jesus spoke more about hell than He did about love. {There is so much more which cannot begin to be covered by this meager comment.}

      Jesus asks the Pharisees in Matthew 25:23 “You serpents, you brood of vipers how will you escape the sentence of hell?” also in Matthew 5:22 (Sermon on the Mount) “You fool, shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell”

      Matthew 13:47-52 Parable of the Dragnet – Christ explains hell
      Matthew 25: 31-32, 34, 41 — More details

      Peter describes himself just like Paul, 2Peter 1:1 – “Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ”
      Kevin, do you fully understand the term “bond-servant”? A slave. Try to comprehend the slave / master relationship. Even as inhumane, disgusting & humiliating the time of slavery was in the USA – it doesn’t even compare to first Century slavery. Peter is saying he is completely unable to do or say anything not authorized by his master whom Peter identifies as Jesus Christ.

      So again, What does Christ say about hell?

      This is the way Scripture interprets Scripture. You are willingly avoiding the Truth data.

    • Sorry, Kevin — as I was reviewing the comments, I missed 2 of your questions:

      1. How did the earliest Christians define the “good news of the gospel?


      Romans 1:1 God will forgive sins, deliver from sin's power, and give eternal hope
      Mark 1:1 The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ

      "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew name "Joshua" (the Lord IS salvation)
      "Christ" (annointed one) is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word, "Messiah"
      "Jesus" is the Lord's human name; "Christ" signifies His office as ruler of God's coming kingdom.


      2. When they preached salvation, salvation from what?


      “Salvation” means ‘deliverance’ or ‘rescue’. The power of the gospel ie Salvation:

      1. delivers people from lostness (Mt. 18:11)
      2. delivers people from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)
      3. delivers people from willful spiritual ignorance (Hos 4:6; 2Th 1:8) . . . hmmmmm
      4. delivers people from evil self-indulgence (Lk 14:26)
      5. delivers people from the darkness of false religion (Col 1:13; 1Peter 2:9)

      Salvation rescues us from the ultimate penalty for our sin — eternal separation from God and eternal punishment (Rev. 20:6 & Rev. 20:11-14)

      May I suggest studying Romans 1:16 and learning more about “saving faith”. The word “Salvation” is usually present tense which stresses that faith in not simply a one-time event, but an on-going condition. True saving faith is supernatural, a gracious gift of God that He produces in the heart (Eph 2:8).

  12. Speaking of which, why didn’t God’s initial warning about the tree of knowledge of good and evil include a warning about hell? That would have been a great place to introduce the topic–at the beginning.

  13. Judy, correct me if I am wrong but, it sounds like you are criticizing a film that hasn’t been made yet – it doesn’t make sense to me that you are heeding the message of the lighthouse blog because according to the press releases for this film, they have only just begun with the interviews and they clearly state that they are speaking with ‘all sides of the debate’.

    You say, “I don’t mind at all ‘faith issues questioned’; however, I do mind when God’s Truth is avoided, twisted, or ignored while “searching for the answers”

    …I totally agree with you. I haven’t seen the movie but it appears that you have. Please point out to me where these filmmakers have done that.

    • Hi FranklinTN —

      What is there to debate? From Kevin’s website:

      This year, the event is headlined by Judas Priest and Korn. But we’re just as interested in acts like GWAR, Mayhem, Morbid Angel and Deicide. Each of these bands uses hell-themed imagery in their music and artwork, so we’re keen to find out what’s behind it all and why such themes and images appeal so strongly to their fans.

      And let’s not forget that Copenhell is more than just music. It’s billed as a carnival-like atmosphere with all kinds of bizarre and alternative performances. A man suspended from hooks through his skin and fire-eating girls in hot pants were part of Copenhell 2010. One can only imagine what we’ll see and who we’ll be able to interview this year.

      Kevin is “keen to find out what’s behind it all and why such themes and images appeal so strongly to their fans.” I continue to be puzzled why Kevin doesn’t know these answers. It requires a “feature-length documentary” movie which is “Blending interviews of the narrator’s personal journey”.

      Christian’s have nothing to learn about an eternity of life or an eternity of judgement from the “narrator’s personal journey” using his starting point as described in the above post of Kevin’s.

  14. I would be of the opinion that God doesn’t mind who we ask. After all, it all gets a bit circular – how do we know who to ask unless we ask?

    • Hi Louise,
      It is about who we ask. Scripture will interpret Scripture and God sent the Holy Spirit . John 14: 25 gives us the assurance that we can understand and know God.

      John records the words of Jesus:
      “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

      I have learned so much from tried and tested schoalarly teachers. Scripture seems “cirular” but unlike our time where most teacher interject their opinions, the Apostles spoke only what their Master Jesus Christ said and because Jesus was always plan A (referring to Adam’s fall in the garden) Jesus has been present since the beginning (Genesis 1:26) “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . .”

      We also have to study the Old Testament. Believer’s during Christ’s time only had the OT. I think I do understand your point but as you use Scripture to interpret itself — Scripture becomes alive and useful in a Christian’s life. Do I like what I read about hell. Absolutely not! My heart aches and I have cried many a tearful prayer for family and friends whose eternal security in heaven is not certain.

      It fuels the drive to make time to talk with you, Louise — and to warn others of the dangers of movies like “Hellbound” and the willful deception of Kevin Miller.

  15. I’m a bit confused as to how exactly one uses scripture to interpret itself and it seems like even scholarly teachers often disagree on different aspects – do we just call people ‘scholarly’ who think like we do? I feel like faith isn’t something we’re supposed to ‘understand’ as such – we’re not God after all.
    And with respect I certainly do think it IS willful deception to assume to know the mind and heart and intentions of Kevin Miller and his movie hellbound (link removed) when you don’t know him, won’t interview him, and of course have not seen his movie.

    • Hi Emma and welcome to the discussion –

      I feel like faith isn’t something we’re supposed to ‘understand’ as such – we’re not God after all.

      There is much we can know and be certain. Please see this page on our web site: Christian Certainty

      Kevin is clear about his intentions and how he is going to proceed through the project. He may be passionately intrigued by his own topic, the interviews, the “circus”, his journey but it doesn’t provide any new information. Scripture has already said it.

      As I said to Louise, thoughts of an eternity of judgement as described in Scripture for family and friends who do not profess faith in Jesus Christ is unbearable at times. There is nothing amusing or interesting at the sea of lost humanity who might be at these concerts which Kevin’s teams seems to be looking forward to attending.

      This post on Kevinmillerxi.com has this:

      Sometimes I can’t help myself…
      I know it’s pathetic that my last post was sometime in June, but I’ve been on the road pretty much ever since then doing the final round of shooting for the documentary I’ve been working on for the last year and a half. (Our web site will go public around mid-August.) I realize that’s no excuse, seeing as all hotels have Internet access, but sometimes I just don’t have the energy.

      Nevertheless, I couldn’t help but post a link to this site. It calls for Christians to pray for people who are almost certainly going to hell. At first glance I thought it was real. Thankfully, a second glance revealed it to be a hoax. Even so, it sure is a lot of fun.

      Are we supposed to respect a film-maker who thinks the site he links to is “a lot of fun”? Jesus had compassion for man which is why He warned us so much of eternal judgement. No, not funny at all. Prayer for those who are not Christians is serious, serious business.

  16. Judy: you haven’t answered my question. Why is there no mention of hell in Peter and Paul’s sermons in Acts? Think about Paul on Mars Hill. This is the perfect moment for Paul to bring the Gentiles up to speed on the fact their souls are in danger of hellfire if they don’t repent. But he never even mentions it. Seems tremendously irresponsible of him, don’t you think? And what about 1 Corinthians 15 when Paul summarizes the gospel he shared with them previously–once again, no mention of hell. In fact, Paul never uses any of the biblical words that are often translated as “hell.” How could this be?

    As for Jesus, in the book of Matthew he uses the word “Gehenna” several times, but he never uses the word “hell.” Gehenna also appears a few times in Mark and Luke. Do you have any idea what this word means and why he would use it?

    • Jesus is referring to the Hiinnom Valley, SW of Jerusalem. Ahaz and Manasseh permitted human sacrifices there during their reigns (2 Ch 28:3, 33:6) and therefore it was called “the Valley of Slaughter” (Jer. 19:6). In Jesus’ day, it was a garbage dump where fires burned continually which made for an apt symbol of eternal fire. “Lake of Fire” which Scripture uses repeatedly to describe eternity after judgement.

      But I suspect you already knew this.

    • Kevin, you are determined to use your own finite understanding of Scripture as the basis for Truth. Are your thoughts superior to the Triune God. Jesus said it.

      It matters not if Paul missed some grandiose opportunity to talk about eternity for those judged. I claim no ability or authority to deem Paul “irresponsible”.

      Paul acted on the marching orders from his master, Jesus. Perhaps you would have done it differently in Christ’s ‘shoes’ but it has all been done for you.

  17. Don’t we all have a finite understanding of scripture?

    • I would probably answer yes and no with an added caveat that there is much for which we can be certain. As found on our blog page “Christian Certainty” Personally, I apply “finite understanding” and thus God’s infinte understanding and vision to the circumstances of my life and our family’s life. God has a plan for my life. My prayer is that my will conforms to His perfect will for my life.

      As I said earlier, John 14:25 — Jesus promised . . .
      ““These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” Emphasis mine

  18. Judy…you seem to have it all figured out…including this movie which you’ve never seen nor clearly know anything about (you cut and paste lighthouse.org’s unfounded fear-mongering – hence ‘movie buffs beware’ – in your blog. Pious people like you who appear to be have been able to unravel the mystery of God and the Holy Scriptures are the reason why I steered clear of Christianity for so long.

    Judy writes, “Kevin is “keen to find out what’s behind it all and why such themes and images appeal so strongly to their fans.” I continue to be puzzled why Kevin doesn’t know these answers. It requires a “feature-length documentary” movie which is “Blending interviews of the narrator’s personal journey”.

    Judy writes, “Christian’s have nothing to learn about an eternity of life or an eternity of judgement from the “narrator’s personal journey” using his starting point as described in the above post of Kevin’s.”

    That’s just plain stupid. Wait for the movie before you publicly condemn and critisize…you refuse to give him an interview? Then at least investigate before you slander…a point where we all have observed you falling short.

    • Good Morning, FranklinTN

      No, I don’t have it figured out, Scripture does and “there is nothing new under the sun” Eccl 1:2-11

  19. Judy: you’re correct re: Jesus’ use of Gehenna. Now tell me this: Did the Jews of Jesus’ day have a concept of eternity as we think of it today?

    • Hi Kevin,

      Does a student require pre-existing knowledge of the subject for which they will be taught and instructed? Our son is taking Physics this year . . . does he already need to know physics in order to learn the concept of Newton’s Law of Universal Gravitation?

      Did Isaiah have an existing (New Testament) concept of “Immanuel” known to us as, Jesus . . . recorded in Is 7:14?

      Do you reject the parables which Jesus used to teach the Jews?

      • I think that’s called answering a question with a question…

        • You are right, Louise — but I am hoping he can make the connection and answer his own question. We will see . . .

  20. Judy: My question is purely academic. How did the Jews of Jesus’ time conceive of time? Did they have a concept of eternity as unending time? Is such a concept even biblical?

    • Kevin,
      We will continue to reach an impasse because of your willful spiritual ignorance. You look at Scripture and run it through your intellectual reasoning and determine truth. I look at Scripture and view it as truth and question man’s intellectual reasoning regarding it.

      The first 2 questions you ask as if they have some bearing on the validity of hell as Scripture provides those details. It has no bearing. Jesus spent much of His time teaching these concepts that you want to dismantle. It matters not what the Jew’s conception was at that time learning from the Master.

      However, Scripture does answer your question:

      In the Old Testament (Eccl 3:11) written by King Solomon:
      “. . . He has also set eternity in their heart . . .”

      Since God “set eternity in their heart” “ We can conclude that the concept of eternity was present among the Jews. God made men for His eternal purpose.

      You ask, “Is such a concept [eternity as unending time] even biblical?” The answers are so simple it confounds me why a professing Christian does not know the answers.
      It must be Biblical because it is clearly found in Scripture.

      Kevin, it becomes more and more evident that you reject Scripture as the ultimate authority. This is your core belief. Were you trained to doubt and reconstruct Scripture while Brad Jersak was your pastor? If so shame on him.

      2 Tim 2:16-17 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”

  21. A single proof text from Ecclesiastes hardly answers the question, Judy. As a point of trivia, what Hebrew word is translated “eternity” there? On a big picture level though, how did the ancient Jews conceive of time?

    • Kevin, why doesn’t a single verse of Scripture answer the question? Because you don’t think so?

      “Eternity” is translated (word-picture) from the Ancient Hebrew word, “olam” which gives a picture (you are aware that the Hebrew language uses ‘word pictures’ as compared to the Greek mind which was more precise) of duration of time which is concealed or hidden, a sense of forever, indefinitely.

      Even the Aramaic sha ‘ta refers to an indefinite period. Eternity?

      Since you want to engage in ancient liguistic sparring then you must also concede to accepting the way the Ancient Hebrew mind ‘heard’. The Hebrew mind did not ask the post-modern questions where you seem to be most comfortable. This style is rooted in the Greek (Western) mind. Here is my trivia question; how about you tell us what ‘shema’ meant to the OT Hebrews and how it was applied?

      The “Hellbound” project is about presenting to the world your abberation of Scripture and personal ideas of hell and finding the data to support it. This is hardly a respectable project worthy of intellectual consideration. You have yet to use Scripture to support any idea explored in the project. Please correct me if I have overlooked it. It makes me wonder if Brad preached from Scripture.

      At this point, you fit the description of a false teacher more than a Christian.

      They will try to teach strange doctrines, myths, and endless geneologies. (1Tim. 1:3-4)
      These people are “always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and also ”oppose the truth .”(2Tim. 3:7,8)
      These “certain persons have crept in unnoticed…ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4)
      They will attempt to “delude you with persuasive arguments” captivating us “‘through philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” (Col. 2:4,8)

  22. Oh boy Judy and Yvonne, you are more patient than I would be. Wow. Interesting thread here, glad I dropped in. Just a few things…

    I think that perhaps the reason that “so many smart, well meaning people can look at the same data and yet come away with such radically different conclusions” is because of just that. In their “smart and well meaning” way, they base their conclusions on their personal interpretations… leaning on their own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) instead of on the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth (John 16:13).

    So about this film…it makes me think of the old analogy that the FBI only studies the real, true dollar bills, not the counterfeits…that the fakes will come and go, so it’s only by studying and knowing an authentic bill that a counterfeit can be spotted immediately and quickly. In the same way, isn’t going to other sources than God’s truth (studying the counterfeits) just asking for confusion? Funny how when Christians stand up for God’s word and warn others to seek THE source for Truth rather than the changing opinions of men and alternative sources, they are immediately labeled as fear-mongerers? Like, what’s with that? Isn’t that like the FBI calling their own counterfeit team’s warnings ‘fear mongering’ and ‘rampant speculating”?

    Okay so one of the above comments said “If the Bible is so crystal clear about hell, why is it that so many Christians disagree on what it says?” Well, maybe these Christians who disagree with the living word (Hebrews 4:12) need to re-examine their faith and work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12). There’s nothing wrong with asking questions, but in the end we had better submit to what the Bible tells us – that there will be judgment and punishment, and that it will be just and fair, as God is just and fair. Doesn’t justice demand punishment? Isn’t that one of the basics of Christianity? I mean, it’s the whole point of salvation (saved from what?) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are born spiritually dead, separated from God by sin, and the only way to be saved and fit for heaven (as opposed to the opposite place) is to believe in Jesus Christ’s work on the cross. Is this not the gospel message? Isn’t questioning hell and judgment the same as questioning the heart of the gospel?

    But back to Christians disagreeing… rather than Christians disagreeing about hell, it seems more to me as if many of them (not all) live like there is no hell. Not sharing their faith…not caring about the salvation of the lost…and not being different than the world. Or maybe they just don’t want to think about hell (or downplay it) because they don’t like it. I’m sure God hates the idea of hell too, but it wasn’t intended for people, but for the devil and his angels.

    Anyways, that’s my two bits. There was something else important I was going to say…maybe I’ll remember tomorrow…

  23. Now I remember…just some (sobering) thoughts… if we’ve got it all wrong and if there is no hell, (no consequences), didn’t Jesus go to a lot of needless trouble, pain and suffering to save us from eternal nothingness? And so then shouldn’t everyone just have a good time and party it up? If there is no hell, what’s with the judgment (Bema) seat of Christ (for believers), and why does there need to be a Great White Throne judgment (for unbelievers)? If there is no hell, what about the demon in the guy in Mathew 8 who cried out, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” And exactly where are all those whose names are not written in the book of life going to be thrown (Rev. 20) if there’s no judgment or damnation or fire? And if people say, well that’s just your interpretation of the book of Revelation, then it all conveniently boils down to semantics, and a literalist approach vs allegorical, that bottomless rabbit hole which some universalist types with alternative theories might pull you into.

    Oh, speaking of Revelation 20, it looks like the Lake of Fire is the FINAL stop – not hell, and even worse…

    “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:14,15

    • Welcome, Carla!

      Glad you have been following this thread and posted excellent points! Thank you.

      Isn’t it curious that there is no debate, confusion, or compelling ‘alternative’ views of Heaven? Why isn’t Kevin questioning heaven along his spiritual journey? How about a movie, “Heavenbound”. Must not be very profitable.

      • Good point. Don’t forget the question mark (Heavenbound?) – it’s all about the question mark these days, ya know, because we need to doubt and question everything God has said. ;)

        Interesting how this is the same old very first question we read in the Bible (as you mentioned earlier “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” Gen 3:1b).

  24. Yvonne: You seem to have come to a number of surprising conclusions about a film that is far, far from being completed. A few points in response to you and Carla:

    1) The word “olam” is also used for time for the distant past or the distant future as a time that is difficult to know or perceive. This word is frequently translated as eternity or forever but in the English language it is misunderstood to mean a continual span of time that never ends. In the Hebrew mind it is simply what is at or beyond the horizon, a very distant time. The Hebrews viewed time as a series of ages rather than one, unending timeline. That’s why in the New Testament, for example, you’ll see the plural form of the Greek word “aion,” for example, which is often mistranslated as “eternity.” Logically, there can’t be more than one eternity, so we must conclude that “aion” simply meant an age, similar to the Hebrew word “olam.” The end of the age was unknowable b/c it was beyond the horizon, but that doesn’t imply an assumption of unending time.

    2) Carla: Do you mean to imply by your comments above that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible is leaning on their own understanding rather than the Holy Spirit?

    3) I appreciate your FBI counterfeit bill analogy, Carla, but you’re assuming all views of hell that don’t match your view are counterfeits. That is problematic b/c the people who hold these competing views consider themselves Christians who hold the Bible as their primary authority and who feel led by the Spirit to hold their positions. How do you reconcile this fact apart from writing these people off as false teachers? It would be just as easy for them to attach the same label to you, but by what authority do any of us make such judgment calls? You can say the Holy Spirit is your authority when interpreting Scripture, but what happens when two people, who both insist they feel led by the Spirit, disagree? The history of the church is full of such disagreements. Is it as simple as saying the people who disagree with you weren’t led by the Spirit? If so, by what authority do you make such a claim? My point is, just because Christians disagree with you INTERPRETATION of Scripture does not mean they are disputing Scripture itself. This isn’t a matter of whether or not we accept Scripture as an authority. Everyone I’ve spoken with accepts Scripture as an authority. The debate comes down to which interpretation of that Scripture to accept as authoritative. There’s a huge difference there.

    4) To me, this is the most telling question of all: “Isn’t questioning hell and judgment the same as questioning the heart of the gospel?” To which I would respond, if judgment and hell are the heart of the gospel, how can the gospel be “good news”? And why wouldn’t the apostles preach about hell and judgment in Acts? And why wouldn’t the writer of John include a mention of hell in his gospel? And why wouldn’t Paul mention it in any of his writings, especially in 1 Cor. 15, for example, when he summarizes the gospel–Good News–that he shared with the Corinthians earlier? It had nothing to do with salvation from hell and everything to do with salvation from death. And if hell and judgment are the heart of the gospel, how do you reconcile that with 1 John 4:18, which tells us that perfect love drives out all fear, b/c fear has to do with punishment? And how do you also reconcile that with Romans 5:18, for example, which says, “just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.” Or how about Romans 11:32, which says, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”? If hell and judgment are the heart of the gospel, why did Jesus say, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”? As you can see, there are no easy answer to this.

    Throughout what you’ve said, Carla, I see a longing for justice, for wrongs to be made right. And I can certainly agree with that. It’s a universal longing, for evil to be identified as such and then for justice to be done. My question to you is, what does justice look like? What does punishment achieve in the end? In God’s economy–take the entire Old Testament, for example–is punishment an end in itself or a means to an end? If God truly hates sin, why won’t he simply annihilate it rather than keep it alive forever in a quarantined area called hell?

    I think the only way for God to be good is if he takes all of our wrongs and makes them right. But logically speaking, I don’t think hell is required to do this. By that I’m not saying hell doesn’t exist. I’m just saying that there can be consequences other than eternal, conscious torment, consequences that could be restorative rather than just punitive. And this is not a case of leaning on my own understanding. There is tremendous Scriptural warrant for such thinking.

    To answer a few of your other questions: If we’ve got it all wrong about hell, wasn’t the atonement a waste of time? Definitely not. As Hebrews 2:14-18 says, “Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” This certainly squares with the disciples’ preaching in Acts and Paul’s letter to the Corinthians where he emphasis not deliverance from hell but deliverance from death. When he summarizes the good news in 1 Cor. 15, all he talks about is the resurrection. So when the NT writers talk about salvation, what do they mean, salvation from what? Clearly, Christ’s death and resurrection accomplished a great deal–it broke the power of sin, the wages of which are death. Before, we were in bondage to sin and fear and death. Now we are free!

    And so then shouldn’t everyone just have a good time and party it up? Of course not. Why on earth would we even ask such a question. Let me ask you a question: If you had the opportunity to cheat on your spouse without anyone finding out, would you do it? Why not? After all, there are no external consequences. Hopefully your answer is, “Of course I wouldn’t do it!” Why? Because you LOVE your husband. You aren’t faithful due to fear of punishment (an external motivator) but b/c you love and value your spouse. The same goes for our relationship with God. If we are only obeying him out of fear of punishment, 1 John tells us we don’t actually love God at all. Your question also assumes there is such thing as a victimless sin. Again, why wouldn’t we sin? Because we know whenever we do, we hurt someone else. And we also hurt ourselves. So even if hell doesn’t exist, there are plenty of reasons to abide by the two greatest commandments–because when we break them, we ruin not only our lives but the lives of those around us. You might as well ask why we shouldn’t just act as if the law of gravity doesn’t exist.

    If there is no hell, what’s with the judgment (Bema) seat of Christ (for believers), and why does there need to be a Great White Throne judgment (for unbelievers)? Because there needs to be an accounting for our actions. Like it or not, everything we do affects someone else. Some people benefit, and others suffer. For God to be just, he must balance the books. He must bring sinners to repentance, and he must restore what has been lost. The good news is, he can do this, b/c he has defeated sin and death. We are frustrated in our attempts at justice b/c all we can do is punish people–attempt to even the score. That’s b/c we lack the knowledge, wisdom and power (to raise the dead) that would allow us to truly establish justice. God has all of those things, so we can trust him to make everything right. So even if hell doesn’t exist in terms of eternal, conscious torment, no one is getting away with anything. All of us will have to stand before God and give an account of our lives–and then submit to whatever he deems just to make things right.

    If there is no hell, what about the demon in the guy in Mathew 8 who cried out, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?” This question has to do with demons, not people.

    And exactly where are all those whose names are not written in the book of life going to be thrown (Rev. 20) if there’s no judgment or damnation or fire? First of all, the only mention of the lake of fire is in Revelation, so we should be cautious of building a theology of hell on such a slender platform. A good rule of thumb in terms of biblical interpretation is to interpret obscure passages in light of didactic passages rather than vice versa. So the fact that none of the OT prophets, Jesus (except for a passing ref. in Matthew 25) or any of the other New Testament writers mention this lake of fire should raise a red flag in terms of how we should read this passage. You’ll also notice the Revelation doesn’t end at chapter 20. Take a look at Revelation 22:14-17: “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”

    What are all of these people doing outside the city? I thought they were in the lake of fire. To whom are the Spirit and bride saying “Come!” at the end if everyone is already inside the city?

    I’m not putting forward an answer to any of this; I’m merely trying to point out that even if you take accept the Bible as authoritative (which I do) and you pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as you read it (as I do), within the text are all sorts of competing images, ideas and teachings that are tremendously difficult to reconcile. But I’m quite happy and excited to live in that tension, b/c I’m constantly learning and growing as I delve deeper and deeper into the text.

    Ultimately, it brings me to a point of humility, repentance and joy as I realize my own spiritual neediness and God’s fathomless love for me and all of his creation. God isn’t afraid of my questions, b/c he knows I’m not asking them out of rebellion or spite. Like you, I long for truth, justice, hope and freedom from sin and fear. That’s all that’s motivating me to make this film–that and the desire to share the exciting things I’ve discovered with others.

    • Hello Kevin,

      I think Christians are allowed to disagree with eachother’s interpretations of the Bible. We can agree to disagree, but never on the basic issues of the faith. Isn’t it when people add to or take away from the foundational doctrines taught in the Bible that they have exchanged the truth for a lie? If two professing Christians disagree on the ESSENTIALS, and both say they are led by the Spirit, then maybe they don’t both have the same mind, that is the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2 )

      You say that everyone you’ve spoken with “accepts Scripture as an authority” – I’m not a Bible scholar or anything, but isn’t a basic principle of the Christian faith that the Bible is THE authority?

      Kevin, about point #4 (if judgment and hell are the heart of the gospel, how can the gospel be “good news”?). I didn’t say that (re-read my comment). The heart of the gospel is love, but there’s more to the package. The bad news is that spiritually dead people cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. The good news (the heart of the gospel) is about the way of escape (because God so loved the world, he paid the price we were unable to pay).

      Anyways, here are some of my responses to your questions.

      Question: “And why wouldn’t the apostles preach about hell and judgment in Acts? ”
      Answer: Acts 24: Paul talked to Felix, “discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come” … Acts 17:30-31: Paul to the men of Athens: “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.”

      Q: “And why wouldn’t the writer of John include a mention of hell in his gospel?”
      A: Curious: why did you single out that gospel? The other three include a dozen references to hell (Jesus talked about hell more than heaven). The purpose and perspective of John was that we might believe that Jesus was the Son of God (John 20:31), but in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, John included the mention of wrath, judgment, fire, brimstone, and even the Lake of Fire. And John did mention (1 John 1:4) that because we know Jesus’s love we can have confidence in the day of judgment.

      Q: “And why wouldn’t Paul mention it in any of his writings, especially in 1 Cor. 15, for example, when he summarizes the gospel–Good News–that he shared with the Corinthians earlier? It had nothing to do with salvation from hell and everything to do with salvation from death.”
      A: I don’t know. Why would Peter and Jude mention in their writings: hell, punishment, pits of darkness reserved for judgment, angels in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, eternal fire, judgment upon all, and everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day?
      Agreed, salvation from death (the wages of sin). The good news of salvation is that Jesus, the only one who qualified, paid the penalty of sin (death of a righteous man) in our place.

      Q: “And if hell and judgment are the heart of the gospel, how do you reconcile that with 1 John 4:18, which tells us that perfect love drives out all fear, b/c fear has to do with punishment?”
      A: I didn’t say that. But the verse means we don’t have to fear the punishment we deserve now that Jesus paid our debt.

      Q: “And how do you also reconcile that with Romans 5:18, for example, which says, “just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.” ”
      A: The option to accept or reject his debt note of payment in our place is available to all.

      Q: “Or how about Romans 11:32, which says, “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”? ”
      A: Romans 11:32 is about God showing grace to the Gentiles who came from disobedience, yet God showed them mercy (he used the disobedience of Israel for the benefit of the Gentiles – so we get to be grafted in to the Promise). God has put them all in ‘custody’ as prisoners (‘shut them up’ as lawbreakers), but offers them all mercy, based on the work of Jesus Christ, who paid their debt. They are all offered the same mercy now.

      Q: “If hell and judgment are the heart of the gospel, why did Jesus say, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”? “
      A: Again, I didn’t say that, but God didn’t send Jesus into the world to condemn the world because the world is already condemned. Jesus came to save us (and salvation is offered to all). But your answer is actually in the next verse if you keep reading (John 3:18): “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Notice that in order to not be condemned one must believe in Jesus.”There is therefore now no condemnation to those who believe in Jesus Christ” (Romans 8:1). BUT – Jesus will still be the final judge of all in the end. Rom 14:10-12 “For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”

      Q: “As you can see, there are no easy answer to this.”
      A: As you can see, there are answers to this.

      Those are all the points I have time to respond to at the moment. (I’m not sure if Yvonne and Judy will allow this to carry on indefinitely, but if so I’ll try to come back and hopefully finish up later.)

      • Okay Kevin, from what you’ve said in the second half of your comment, I see that you are longing for a justice that does not demand punishment for sin or separation from evil. But this is not the justice of a holy God. If a judge lets an offender go free without paying his sentence, is that justice? As for the reason God won’t simply annihilate sin (or snuff out the life of people or angels he created to live forever) it’s because he respects their free will. I’m sure you are aware that the annihilation view is held by cults like the JWs, SDAs, and Unitarian Universalists.

        By the way, do you realize that just before you said you are not leaning on your understanding, you said “I think the only way for God to be good is if he takes all of our wrongs and makes them right. But logically speaking, I don’t think hell is required to do this.” It sounds like you ARE leaning on your own understanding of God, on what you think and what you don’t think. Scripture does NOT back up what you are saying. The God of the Bible is both good and fearsome. As CS Lewis said, “People who have not been in Narnia sometimes think a thing cannot be good and terrible at the same time.”

        As for the NT writers, there’s no question that the salvation they write about means salvation from the wages of sin – death. And it’s available and offered to all, but not all accept this free gift. The final result of the power of sin is an eternity separated from God’s presence, unless a person chooses to accept the payment –the life of His sinless Son as substitute for our own (Heb 9:22 – Without shedding of blood there is no remission). Those who reject his payment are basically paying their own way, which is impossible, and will remain separated from God and face the consequences on their own – death, judgment and hell. It’s really quite simple.

        And about faithfulness, fear, and sinning – we are not faithful to God out of fear of punishment – we serve him out of love and gratitude for what he has done by saving us from the wages of sin! People sin because we are born that way. It’s not just what we do, it’s who we are. Sinners. Lots of people live by the golden rule, so they won’t ruin their lives and the lives of those around them. Sinners can try and live very ‘good’ lives for good reasons. But our righteousness is as filthy rags. What sets us apart as Christians is that when we are born again we are given a new nature, indwelt and empowered by the Spirit to not sin. This is basic Christianity 101.

        Kevin, you say that for God to be just, he must balance the books by bringing sinners to repentance, and restoring what has been lost. By that, do you mean after death? Is that what you believe? (“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.” Hebrews 9:27 )

        You say God will make everything right, that even if hell doesn’t exist, “all of us will have to stand before God and give an account of our lives–and then submit to whatever he deems just to make things right.” So are you saying God will violate the free will of people and force all to submit to His way in the end, against their own will, kind of like a shotgun wedding? That is what a dictator might do, or a robot manufacturer, but not God.

        About my question about the demon in Mathew 8, all you said is that it “has to do with demons, not people.” So do you mean that it’s okay for the demons (who have been around for millennia and know more about the spiritual realm than we do) to believe in hell’s existence, but we should doubt it?

        You say that “the only mention of the lake of fire is in Revelation, so we should be cautious of building a theology of hell on such a slender platform.” Slender platform? Seriously?! This is the last scene of history when the small and great from all time whose names are not in the book of life stand before the throne in resurrected bodies and are sentenced to their final destination. And you say we should be cautious about believing what is said in the Revelation of Jesus Christ to his most beloved apostle, in which he mentions the Lake of Fire not only once, but THREE times??!?! If we use your rule of thumb for obscure passages (for that same passage about the lake of fire) and look up the ‘book of life’, we see it’s only mentioned in one other book (Philipians 4:3) – does that mean there is a ‘slender platform’ for the book of life, and we need to have a ‘red flag’ when we read about it? Kevin, guess what? The Bible doesn’t have ‘red flags’, it has nuggets and gems of truth that we need to dig deep for in order to discover.

        One of your last points is the most telling, when you ask (about the the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood outside the gate in Rev. 22): “What are all of these people doing outside the city? I thought they were in the lake of fire. To whom are the Spirit and bride saying “Come!” at the end if everyone is already inside the city?” Kevin, from this passage do you actually conclude there is no final separation of good and evil and that God is just going to invite all the rebels in who have despised and rejected his free gift? If God is completely sinless, holy and just, nothing unholy can enter His presence, which means that those who do not accept His truth will have to spend eternity somewhere else. In Matthew 13 Jesus said, “49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

        You say the Bible has “all sorts of competing images, ideas and teachings that are tremendously difficult to reconcile.” There is nothing scary or wrong about asking questions, because there are plenty of answers – but it seems you are settling for the wrong ones. You say you long for truth, justice, hope and freedom from sin and fear. Well, we can have that all right now in Christ. From what you have said, it looks like you only believe parts of the Bible and consider it as only an authority, not THE authority. You are certainly delving deeper and deeper – but into deception, my friend. Please consider these things, as I believe you are not only putting yourself in great peril, but others you want to share these ideas with.

  25. Kevin, Thank you for the recent reply/comment. It is pending until our review. We will not publically participate in your willful ignorance and proud, comfortable confusion. judy

  26. How about just wait for the movie Judy…you have a way of inciting and provoking and condemning people more than you have a way of engaging in meaningful discussion and that never is productive. Your blog is as full of self-indulgence as the movie you so ignorantly critisize. I am new to the faith and this is no place for new believers or seekers unfortunately.

    • Hoping to save Kevin some money, time, and effort.

      Perhaps one day you will see the danger of beginning with one’s own thoughts and trying to make Scripture support them. And if you have children who are continually bombarded by confusion packaged as Christianity you may also understand our “self-indulgent” contention for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

      “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” Jude 3 & 4


Categories

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 156 other followers

%d bloggers like this: